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[icon] My comment on the Palin thing - Patti
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Subject:My comment on the Palin thing
Time:12:13 am
What sort of cruel mother would accept the VP nomination in that position? Your daughter made a mistake, and you could have been loving and supportive. Instead, you did the one thing that absolutely guarantees the whole world will know that your daughter fucked up.
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melebeth
Link:(Link)
Time:2008-09-02 12:16 pm (UTC)
The question is "does she actually want a baby" or does she not have any choice about saying she wants it. Given that her mother is anti-comprehensive sex ed (as is, I assume, the Alaska school system), and therefore that she was unlikely to learn much about contraception, and pro-choice... it's hard to say whether she wants the child or is doing what she feels she has to. I've been writing about this a lot for work and I'm trying to avoid saying she's "made a mistake" or "fucked up," but I do question whether, other than deciding to have sex, she's had much in the way of choices here.
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johnpalmer
Link:(Link)
Time:2008-09-12 12:09 am (UTC)
My understanding is that the Alaska schools have comprehensive sex ed, and that Palin is okay with that.

True? False? I don't know for sure, and it'd be hard to find out now. But I have seen support of those claims.
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greeklady
Link:(Link)
Time:2008-09-02 06:52 pm (UTC)
The issue is that Republican is known for a conservative religious right type people. A unmarried pregnant teen is a serious scandal for someone coming from that background. (yes I am generalizing here).
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mav600
Link:(Link)
Time:2008-09-02 11:07 am (UTC)
I agree with rib. Why should the mother ruin her life because the daughter screwed up?

This is one of the many reasons I will not be having kids.
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schmengie
Link:(Link)
Time:2008-09-02 11:27 am (UTC)
I dont understand why she would be considered cruel here. I am sure she wishes her daughter wasnt pregnant, but why should she change her life because of that?
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(Deleted comment)

schmengie
Link:(Link)
Time:2008-09-02 09:33 pm (UTC)
I am agreeing with your basic point, but my kids decisions will punish me forever :-)
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whipartist
Link:(Link)
Time:2008-09-03 06:12 am (UTC)
You have never been a terrified teenage girl who finds out that she's pregnant. Imagine for a while what it would feel like to be that girl, really think about it. You'd probably be frightened of the future and how your life is going to change, sad for the opportunities you will miss, and deeply embarrassed because you think the whole world will know about your mistake.

Let's add a layer. Imagine that your mother, the person you probably rely on most in your life, does the one thing that guarantees that the whole world WILL know about your mistake.

"Thanks mom! Love you for it!"
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jcdill
Subject:Palin - not qualified to lead.
Link:(Link)
Time:2008-09-02 12:51 pm (UTC)
There are 2 issues for me here:

1) She accepted the VEEP nomination, knowing the news media would make life hell for her unmarried 17 year old 5-months-pregnant daughter. Obama might proclaim that "families are off-limits" but the news media doesn't care - they smell a big story here and will not let off the trail.

2) She's not qualified to be POTUS if she can't even make sure her own daughter has appropriate sex education and is appropriately protected from unwanted pregnancy. If she can't lead her own family, and properly equip them for life's difficult situations, she sure can't lead the country. What stupid religious-based decisions would she make as POTUS, send soldiers into war with no ammo and tell them to "turn the other cheek"?
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(Deleted comment)

jcdill
Subject:Re: Palin - not qualified to lead.
Link:(Link)
Time:2008-09-02 02:53 pm (UTC)
Palin didn't provide her daughter with useful sex education - instead she used an "educational model" of preaching abstinence only. It clearly failed as her unmarried 17 year old daughter didn't abstain, didn't use birth control, and is now pregnant and it appears she will be railroaded to marry her teenage boyfriend. Despite this obvious failure of the "abstinence only" sex education model, Palin is still convinced that "abstinence only" is a good form of sex education.

I don't want someone with this type of poor reasoning skills second in line for POTUS. All recent Republican candidates have had this issue - this particular candidate is just proof of how insane this policy is.

I have a friend who prefers McCain over Obama because he thinks McCain is more ethical and has more character (for having enlisted, served his country, etc.). (My friend has been brainwashed by right-wing radio and TV reports that report dubious claims Obama is unethical, but that's a different issue.) I told my friend that I really don't care about ethics or "character" in this context. What I care about is the ability to make good decisions.

The US needs a POTUS who makes good decisions for the country.

Personal character is secondary. I'd rather have a person who is a "snake" in personal affairs but who makes GOOD DECISIONS FOR THE COUNTRY than have a president who seems ethical but makes poor decisions. Bush II is a good example of this problem - he obviously strongly believes in many things, but he's an idiot and his decisions, policies, and actions have been horribly BAD for the US. Bush II is still convinced that invading Iraq was helping us fight terrorists (yet Osama Bin Laden is still at large) and that the Surge was a good idea even though deaths and violence in Iraq still continues at a very high rate and Iraq is no closer to forming a unified country-wide government and police force and ready to take over from the occupying soldiers.

I believe McCain is cut from the same cloth as Bush II (and all other recent Republican leaders), and his choice of VEEP (and her choices, and the choices of people under her influence) clearly illustrate this problem.
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whipartist
Subject:Re: Palin - not qualified to lead.
Link:(Link)
Time:2008-09-02 04:55 pm (UTC)
I bloody well *do* blame the mother for the decision the daughter makes, when the mother's stated position is to avoid teaching the daughter the information and skills necessary to make an informed decision.

Living on that side of the pond, you probably don't have a sense for how nasty this sort of education is. The religious right really wants kids to learn nothing about sex but "just say no until marriage."
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deedeebythebay
Subject:Re: Palin - not qualified to lead.
Link:(Link)
Time:2008-09-11 07:12 pm (UTC)
I find myself agreeing with both sides. What I think, however, is that you, ribmeister, may not understand the ultra conservative, right-wing fundamentalist mindset of a Penticostal religious household.

The daughter would have been taught not to have sex because she would be going against God's will. She would have heard shaming stories all her life. She would be receiving loving support from her family hand-in-hand with damnation for having sinned in such a way. No, children are not robots who automatically obey the commands of their parents. But when you are raised in that kind of religious upbringing, your rebellion is usually accompanied by some pretty heavy duty guilt trips and a change in your "status". I look more at her professed faith and knowing what it entails and see the hypocrisy in the act of accepting the VP nomination.

More importantly, would I, if I were offered the nomination, take it with a new baby in hand and a pregnant teenage daughter? The latter yes. The former? Considering the infant has special needs? Considering how my faith tradition expected certain responsibilities from me? Probably not. Ignoring the faith tradition, I probably wouldn't, quite honestly. But then, I have different priorities.

I want to look more at the choices she made as a pregnant mother against doctor's orders. That is where I question her judgment as a mother. Where I question her judgment in putting her career as top priority and how it flies in the face of her supposed support of care of the unborn. Where I question how many other experts she is willing to ignore to do what she wants once she is VP.

And when I look closer and see the half-truths and outright lies she tells, I don't want her as VP-Mama. I want her far away from the White House.
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(Deleted comment)

pdx_girl
Link:(Link)
Time:2008-09-02 07:28 pm (UTC)
I find it appalling. Not only the pregnant teenager who needs her mother, but also the 4 month old baby with Down's who needs his mother (regardless of who the mother of that child is, although statistically more likely to be Sarah Palin despite rumors).

As much as the abstinence only "education" factor is an irritant, I seriously doubt that a 17 year old doesn't know how babies get made and how to prevent them from getting made, even if her parents are conservative, anti-abortion whack jobs. I think teenagers deserve more credit than what we give them. Just because they lack appropriate sex ed doesn't mean they don't know what's going on. More frightening to me is that they are getting MARRIED. Ugh.
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whipartist
Link:(Link)
Time:2008-09-03 06:18 am (UTC)
Sure, she probably knows where babies come from. She may not have enough evidence (in the form of facts, statistics, etc.) to make rational decisions.

If her mother is as pro-abstinence as they claim, Ms. Palin almost certainly wasn't taught to make rational, informed decisions about her sexuality. And she probably couldn't turn to her mother for advice, either.
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jcdill
Subject:Like mother/father, like daughter
Link:(Link)
Time:2008-09-02 10:07 pm (UTC)
Oh, one more thing - we really don't need anymore Babs & Jenna Bush style DUI incidents. I'm ready for another Chelsea Clinton type of "president's daughter", an A Student, Stanford Student, successful and poised young lady, thankyouverymuch.
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schmengie
Subject:Re: Like mother/father, like daughter
Link:(Link)
Time:2008-09-03 02:21 am (UTC)
that is some high horse you ride on. I say once more. kids who do stupid things know no party. it is beyond silly how you are trying to wrap politics into parenting
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davidjacob
Subject:Re: Like mother/father, like daughter
Link:(Link)
Time:2008-09-03 05:13 am (UTC)
So it's ok if the father's a whore who sleeps with any piece of trailer trash that comes across his door with a wife who stands by him despite his long standing infidelity so she can further her career...as long as the daughter goes to Stanford. If you're going to play this morality card, I think you could do much better than to cite the Clinton family.

The magic candidate isn't out there. They're all going to have flaws, and what their kids do is pretty low on my list of priorities in choosing a candidate.
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whipartist
Subject:Re: Like mother/father, like daughter
Link:(Link)
Time:2008-09-03 06:19 am (UTC)
Do you know for a fact that it was infidelity?

My strong suspicion is that the Clintons have an arrangement of some sort-- at this point, it seems more likely that their marriage is a power partnership rather than a romantic one. I believe Bill's mistake was in getting caught rather than actually doing it.
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davidjacob
Subject:Re: Like mother/father, like daughter
Link:(Link)
Time:2008-09-03 05:48 pm (UTC)
Fair point - I obviously don't know the circumstances of their marriage. I do know enough to say that it's a marriage that doesn't fit my view of what a proper or productive marriage should be (again, with the one example of Chelsea coming out of the family incredibly well standing neither as a validation or invalidation of either side of the argument).
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cjsherwood
Subject:Re: Like mother/father, like daughter
Link:(Link)
Time:2008-09-11 09:29 pm (UTC)
Yes, they almost certainly have an arrangement of some sort and yes, the getting caught thing (and having Chelsea have to deal with it) was the mistake.

(my data comes from a relative who knew the Clintons when he was still governor of AR and she was still an attorney at the Rose Law Firm)
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jcdill
Subject:Re: Like mother/father, like daughter
Link:(Link)
Time:2008-09-03 07:17 am (UTC)
Of course they all have flaws. They are politicians! What we have to do is pick which flaws we can live with.

Call me crazy if you like, but I'll take flaws in personal character (such as Clinton's involvement with Monica Lawinski) from a president who made good choices for the USA, and who was a good parent, over one with "good moral character" (Bush, allegedly) who made horrible choices for the country (Iraq, deficit spending) and was a poor parent (Bush daughters).

The reason I keep bringing up parenting is that my experience is that (of those who are parents) being an effective leader and being an effective parent are closely related. Of Living Presidential Children the worst thing a non-Bush has done is have politics that are not in complete agreement with their father (Amy Carter's protest activities, Ron Reagan's liberal politics). Then we have the Bushes, which have IMHO have all been embarassments. George W is widely regarded as the worst POTUS in over a century. Jeb is widely believed to be instrumental in assisting W with stealing the 2004 Election due to voting irregularities in Florida. Barbara and Jenna have been involved in several scandals (DUI, false ID, etc.). George W knowingly lied to the USA about WMDs (it's a miracle that he wasn't impeached) - it's no surprise Jenna lied to a liquor store clerk about her age with forged ID. Like father, like daughter.

Truly great leaders almost always have a strong family base (close to their parents and in-laws), and if they have children, the children are at best accomplished, at worst not an embarrassment to their famous parent. An effective leader picks good partners, friends and associates, hires good staff, delegates power to people who will follow the leader, and motivates the followers to act with the same policies. The effective leader leads the family, and the country, using the same skills.

It's a free country, you can base your presidential vote on other criteria if you want.
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davidjacob
Subject:Re: Like mother/father, like daughter
Link:(Link)
Time:2008-09-03 05:37 pm (UTC)
While I would really question whether or not Bill Clinton was such a wonderful parent, that's not the issue. You stated that you wanted a presidential family with high character "like Chelsea Clinton", and conveniently ignored all the other debatable character issues surrounding the Clinton family.
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[icon] My comment on the Palin thing - Patti
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